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JJW009 wrote:
They were mostly working outside. They were even provided with boots, combats and waterproofs. Again, few jobs provide you with clothing.

With all due respect, utter cobblers. A large portion of jobs provide you with 'a uniform', that is what they actually got. It wasn't like the people had a choice what clothes they got. Any job which involves working outside, the Health and Safety at Work Act requires an employer to provide appropriate clothing for their employees. That includes waterproof outer layers and footwear. What they provided was just enough to stop the employer getting prosecuted.

I'm sorry, you can make all the implausible excuses you like. They treated those people like sh!t and they deserve to be brought up for it.

Jon


Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:19 pm
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jonbwfc wrote:
Any job which involves working outside, the Health and Safety at Work Act requires an employer to provide appropriate clothing for their employees.

Well I learned something today, thank you. I'm surprised. I've always been expected to provide my own PPP when working on building sites, although it's not something I do very often thankfully - about once a year in recent times. I generally try to avoid "outdoors" if I can, but you don't always get to choose.

Does that include postmen and paper boys? I've never noticed them in any kind of uniform around here.

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Tue Jun 05, 2012 8:33 pm
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JJW009 wrote:
Does that include postmen and paper boys? I've never noticed them in any kind of uniform around here.

Seriously? You've never seen posties wearing bright red jackets/coats? Seriously? You really need to get out more. Paper boys are an interesting case - there are all sorts of weird rules about the employment of minors (which I've never done) so I honestly don't know. Although arguing that because a one-man paper shop doesn't supply waterproof clothing to kids doing a 15 minute paper round a large company who are shipping busfulls of employees around the country to do several 8 hour days in the rain doesn't have to - and more importantly, that it's OK to house them in a tent they can't put up with no sanitation facilities in the pouring rain - is an argument I would barely dignify with the word 'flawed'.

I mean, you do realise you're actually saying it's OK to mistreat and take advantage of people as long as the law doesn't say you're not allowed to? You do know that's the argument you're making, right?

Jon


Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:20 pm
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jonbwfc wrote:
I mean, you do realise you're actually saying it's OK to mistreat and take advantage of people as long as the law doesn't say you're not allowed to? You do know that's the argument you're making, right?

I'm trying to provide a little balance in a very one-sided thread. The story does suggest that there was possibly room for improvement in the logistical management of some personnel, but it's best practice to consider both sides of the story and wait for a full review before passing a "damn them all to hell!" judgement.

Remember, this company was supported by charities under government approved schemes to provide work experience and qualifications for unemployed people. Specifically; "being assessed on the job for NVQ Level 2 in spectator safety after having completed all the knowledge requirements in the classroom and some previous work experience". That's a good thing.

jonbwfc wrote:
You've never seen posties wearing bright red jackets/coats? Seriously? You really need to get out more.

Rather OT but hey. I have in the past, just not around here in the last 15 years. Perhaps they simply choose not to wear them. It's also possible that many of them are indirectly employed as contractors, but I wouldn't know. Or perhaps I just hadn't noticed since it was never particularly on my list of interests. I'll make a point of looking and possibly interviewing the next one I see.

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Tue Jun 05, 2012 9:38 pm
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JJW009 wrote:
jonbwfc wrote:
I mean, you do realise you're actually saying it's OK to mistreat and take advantage of people as long as the law doesn't say you're not allowed to? You do know that's the argument you're making, right?

I'm trying to provide a little balance in a very one-sided thread.

I see. You might want to consider how this makes you appear. Sometimes, things are one sided because there only is one side that's worth being on.

And that, I'm afraid, is as far as this goes for me.

Jon


Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:37 pm
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jonbwfc wrote:
Sometimes, things are one sided because there only is one side that's worth being on.

Maybe in the end you'll be proven correct that a crime was committed. I suspect that it's more complicated and there was no malice of forethought or intent to exploit. Perhaps mistakes were made and lessons can be learned.

To my mind the condemnation of people without due consideration of full evidence and circumstances is a reprehensible crime. Innocent people get hurt when convicted in haste and ignorance. It's what kangaroo courts and lynch mobs are made from. I'll continue to speak out when I see such blinkered and dangerous behaviour.

With balanced reasoning, progress can be made. Knee-jerk reactions and sensationalist headlines are mindless.

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Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:10 pm
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BBC Clickey

Not surprisingly the company's version is somewhat different from that portrayed in the Guardian.
Essentially the coach carrying the people arrived 2 hours early and the coach company kicked them off the coach, a situation that the steward company rep did not handle very well.
All 80 people were offered the under 25 apprenticeship rate (£2.60/hour) at least 50 of which accepted. The remainder either accepted the same rate of pay or refused on the grounds that it would affect other benefits (although I was under the impression that these schemes were specifically intended to get people experience without affecting their benefits so that's a bit odd).

I'm sure the truth lies somewhere between the different versions, it usually does.

Does this do anything to improve my impression of Workfare? No it does not.

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Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:18 am
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and meanwhile another great idea to create jobs ...

Quote:
Justice Secretary Ken Clarke admits plans for cheap prison work could jeopardise jobs

The Justice Secretary Ken Clarke tonight admitted his department’s plans to double the number of prisoners working in the UK could jeopardise the job prospects of the law abiding.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... rnalSearch

i wonder if they are considering creating workhouses for the orphans and homeless ...

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Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:27 am
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