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Taxpayers' Alliance "introduce a single income tax" 
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Oh, so they want to keep regressive consumption taxes that are disproportionately paid by the poor, but end progressive income taxes that are disproportionately paid by the wealthy? Well that sounds like a winning plan.

Did they say anything about capital gains in their document? At present the only possible saving grace would be if they want to equalise it with income taxes. So hopefully I misread them also when I took it to be their desire to eliminate it along with death duties.


Mon May 21, 2012 10:50 pm
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ShockWaffle wrote:
Oh, so they want to keep regressive consumption taxes that are disproportionately paid by the poor, but end progressive income taxes that are disproportionately paid by the wealthy? Well that sounds like a winning plan.

Did they say anything about capital gains in their document? At present the only possible saving grace would be if they want to equalise it with income taxes. So hopefully I misread them also when I took it to be their desire to eliminate it along with death duties.

TBH, I've not looked at the corporate side of this drivel

Sorry.

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Mon May 21, 2012 10:53 pm
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rustybucket wrote:
ShockWaffle wrote:
Oh, so they want to keep regressive consumption taxes that are disproportionately paid by the poor, but end progressive income taxes that are disproportionately paid by the wealthy? Well that sounds like a winning plan.

Did they say anything about capital gains in their document? At present the only possible saving grace would be if they want to equalise it with income taxes. So hopefully I misread them also when I took it to be their desire to eliminate it along with death duties.

TBH, I've not looked at the corporate side of this drivel

Sorry.


if this is 'drivel' may i ask what you consider as 'important' ...

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Mon May 21, 2012 10:56 pm
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If you look at the figure a flat tax system will work.

The majority of tax revenue is generated by the wealthy even though they do everything possible to minimise the amount of tax they paid.

If tax rates for the wealthy were lower they wouldn't spend so much to minimise their exposure thus increasing the amount they pay to HMRC.

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Tue May 22, 2012 8:37 am
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saspro wrote:
If tax rates for the wealthy were lower they wouldn't spend so much to minimise their exposure thus increasing the amount they pay to HMRC.

So goes the theory, personally I'm calling "[LIFTED]" on that. HMRC has a compliance department you know.

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Tue May 22, 2012 11:59 am
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saspro wrote:
If tax rates for the wealthy were lower they wouldn't spend so much to minimise their exposure thus increasing the amount they pay to HMRC.

To my mind, all that would do is eventually drive down the cost of hiring a Tax Accountant.

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Tue May 22, 2012 1:24 pm
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saspro wrote:
If you look at the figure a flat tax system will work.

Which is great - I agree. I would love a system based on pure income/corporation taxes with no consumption taxes at all. One cannot have a flat tax system without the abolition of consumption taxes. However that's not what the Taxpayers' Alliance have called for.

They haven't called for the abolition of VAT for a good reason - it would be illegal. So instead they've done what they always do: called for tax cuts that will benefit themselves and their friends at the golf club.

It has nothing to do with the economy and everything to do with grasping selfishness.

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Tue May 22, 2012 4:40 pm
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saspro wrote:
If you look at the figure a flat tax system will work.

The majority of tax revenue is generated by the wealthy even though they do everything possible to minimise the amount of tax they paid.

If tax rates for the wealthy were lower they wouldn't spend so much to minimise their exposure thus increasing the amount they pay to HMRC.

Your reasoning implies a Zeno paradox. If you half the level of the tax, then that increases the take, if you half it again this too increases the take, therefore the closer you get to to a zero rate of tax (by halving the rate an infinite number of times), the closer you approach an infinite level of taxes paid.

This is of course because reality is a lot more complicated than you are suggesting. I can think of two particular issues that matter for the purposes of this thread. The first is that other factors play a crucial role in the tax efficiencies and evasions you talk of. Primarily the discrepancy between capital gains tax and income tax. If a rich man gets paid in shares, he pays 18 to 28% cap gains on the profits. If he gets paid in cash he pays 45%, this provides a strong incentive to gain the system - one that only applies to the rich. But TPA are recommending a system of 30% and zero%, so the exact same incentive remains - again only the rich need apply. So it's lucky that the rich paying zero taxes will furnish us with infinite income, because many won't pay a red cent under that plan. Common sense says that ideally there shouldn't be a huge difference between cap gains and higher rate income taxes. The rich would pay more if income tax topped out at 40 and so did cap gains (subject to protection for pension funds of course) than they did with 50% income tax.

The other main issue is to do with right and wrong reasons for wanting to reduce a tax. A bad reason to reduce a tax is because people get away with not paying it - that only suggests a problem with the collections system. A good reason to reduce a tax might be that it is unfair - but that would inevitably be a subjective judgment. But this is a pragmatic business, so I will suggest that there is only one obviously good reason to reduce a tax, and that is if it has perverse effects - i.e. if a tax at a certain level can be shown to discourage people from working, investing, taking risks to increase capital etc....

But here's the thing. A 75% income tax for the high paid will discourage many but not all. A 65% tax will discourage significantly fewer, and so on. If an entrepreneur considers investing £100K to start a small business that might employ 3 people, he will do some maths first to decide if its worth the effort and risk. So he might lose his £100k entirely, or he might make it back with a million on top. If he is taxed at 75% he is wagering 100 against a return of 250, so he needs to be very confident of a maximum return. I'm sure a 30% tax would make him much more likely to take the investment plunge, but so would 35, or 40.

But what about those three guys he was going to hire? We know that a certain rate of taxes along with other calculations will decide whether their jobs exist. But they aren't wagering to win huge sums, they are getting paid 25K, and they have bills rather than risks against which to balance that. So their maths is completely different, the amount of tax that can be wrung out of them before it isn't worth turning up to work any more is completely unrelated to the entrepreneur's situation. So what is the objective value of billing at the same rate?


Tue May 22, 2012 6:49 pm
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