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Bribe drug addicts to not have kids 
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I keep reading this as 'Bride drug addicts'...

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:24 pm
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does this include chocaholics and coffee addicts :cry:

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:28 pm
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brataccas wrote:
does this include chocaholics and coffee addicts :cry:

I'm sure it does Bratty. What with your aversion to any form of close contact you should pop down to see if they'll give you the cash. ;) :D

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:43 pm
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mikepgood wrote:
The competance of a person to make such a decision while at the stage of their life where they are "using" is questionable - in my opinion.


And likely to be easily persuaded with the offer of some free money. I feel there are some deeply wrong things with this idea.

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:01 pm
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paulzolo wrote:
mikepgood wrote:
The competance of a person to make such a decision while at the stage of their life where they are "using" is questionable - in my opinion.


And likely to be easily persuaded with the offer of some free money. I feel there are some deeply wrong things with this idea.


There's also deeply wrong things with children being brought up in an environment where they are not getting the love and stability they need. Not saying I agree with it but as someone else said it's their choice and no-one is forcing them.

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:03 pm
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hifidelity2 wrote:
I don't have any Children
Nor do I want any

If I pretent to be an addict can I get £200?

Go for it. Sniff a lot and hang around drug clinics. :D

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:24 pm
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Stare at people a little too long, absolutely reek, rub and scratch, stand with rounded shoulders and your hands in your pockets near bus stops.


Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:27 pm
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leeds_manc wrote:
Stare at people a little too long, absolutely reek, rub and scratch, stand with rounded shoulders and your hands in your pockets near bus stops.

There is a big downside. It will not help your dating while you wait for the charity to contact you. :D

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 4:52 pm
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paulzolo wrote:
mikepgood wrote:
The competance of a person to make such a decision while at the stage of their life where they are "using" is questionable - in my opinion.

And likely to be easily persuaded with the offer of some free money. I feel there are some deeply wrong things with this idea.

Well it's a very odd form of ethics, that's for sure. The summary seems to be 'we really don't give a toss what you do to yourself as long as you don't cause any harm to any unborn children you might have ended up having. By not having them.' It's kind of a warped version of the anti-abortion argument. Christ, imagine how much hell there'd be to pay if they were offering pregnant addicts £200 for every abortion? Actually, they should do that, it'd tie the American christian right's brains in a knot...

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 5:20 pm
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£200 isint a lot of money :(

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:23 pm
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brataccas wrote:
£200 isint a lot of money :(



Tis to some people.

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:29 pm
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oceanicitl wrote:
...but as someone else said it's their choice and no-one is forcing them.

I don't think that is the right way to be looking at it. Or would you agree if it was legal to buy a kidney from some poor Chinese farmer for few hundred pounds? Or maybe for a mother to sell one of her kids just so she can feed the rest of the family?

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 6:41 pm
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koli wrote:
Or maybe for a mother to sell one of her kids just so she can feed the rest of the family?


This is ridiculous. There's no need to sell one of her kids.
The family can just eat them.
Two birds, one stone.

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:13 pm
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koli wrote:
oceanicitl wrote:
...but as someone else said it's their choice and no-one is forcing them.

I don't think that is the right way to be looking at it. Or would you agree if it was legal to buy a kidney from some poor Chinese farmer for few hundred pounds? Or maybe for a mother to sell one of her kids just so she can feed the rest of the family?

Let's be honest, both of those are fairly spurious analogies. The addict in this case is being asked to give up something quite ephemeral - the ability to have kids in the future, something which they may not ever do anyway - not something concrete like an organ or a member of their family.

The point I come back to is this is a very contrary thing for people of liberal bent to assimilate. The addict is making a conscious choice about their future. This to the libertarian mind is A Very Good Thing. However the consequences of this act are essentially aesetic - it is an act of denial. This, to a libertarian mind is A Very Bad Thing. So you end up with a huge level of cognitive dissonance and the only way the libertarian mind can rationalise it is to conclude that the addict isn't really making the choice properly. They're making the wrong choice, so they must be doing so for the wrong reasons or in the wrong way... But a true libertarian would say they have an equal right to make the wrong choices, because nobody has the right to tell people whether their choices are good or bad, as long nobody else gets hurt. And thus you get the kind of reaction here, were people talk about 'mutilation' and accuse them of not being of sound mind.

As a psychologist, it's fascinating. It's a classic example of cognitive dissonance in action.

The first fact is this - nobody has the right to tell any other adult what they can or can not do with their bodies, provided no other person is immediately harmed. That is the basis of many laws, from abortion through to assisted suicide, from getting a tattoo to what clothes you can wear. The law recognises being under the influence of drugs as being enough to cause a person to lose the right to freedom of choice but not the state of addiction per se. As long as the addict is rational in the eyes of law when they sign the papers agreeing to the deal, nobody else has any right to judge it. This is the essence of personal choice under the law.

The second fact is this - the addicts could do what the charity is paying them to do without being paid, and nobody would or indeed could object. In fact, many people would find it laudible, a sign that the addict had recognised the depth of their condition and was at least taking some steps - however drastic -to limit the harm that might do. But because some bunch of yank inspired neocon nutjobs actually want to reward them in cash for doing it, suddenly it's the next worst thing to The Final Solution.

There is nothing so funny as libertarians faced with something that makes them want to act in a very conservative way. Especially when what's doing it is a bunch of conservatives doing something which is essentially libertarian.

They can do this if they want to. Nobody has the right to stop them. This is not facism, it's the very opposite of it.

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Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:23 pm
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jonbwfc wrote:
koli wrote:
oceanicitl wrote:
...but as someone else said it's their choice and no-one is forcing them.

I don't think that is the right way to be looking at it. Or would you agree if it was legal to buy a kidney from some poor Chinese farmer for few hundred pounds? Or maybe for a mother to sell one of her kids just so she can feed the rest of the family?

Let's be honest, both of those are fairly spurious analogies. The addict in this case is being asked to give up something quite ephemeral - the ability to have kids in the future, something which they may not ever do anyway - not something concrete like an organ or a member of their family

In all three situations the cost are really high because people will lose a lot (ability to have kids, kidney or a kid) while benefits are very low (e.g. £200 for sterilisation).
However addicts are not in a position to say no because when you are addicted to drugs you don't care about anything else except getting your fix again. So basically this situation is used against them and they can't do anything about it, they don't have a choice...

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