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Brexit Britain 
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MrStevenRogers wrote:
sovereignty
own laws with no out side interference ie. eu courts
trade freely with who we like without eu interference, own trade deals
no more free movement and the ability to control all immigration
no more massive payments to an un-elected body ie. eu

are they good enough there are more ...


Sorry Steven, and it really pains me to write this. I wish you had provided a bit more background on your arguments, but the bullet points you have provided have little merit.

The UK already has sovereignty. That won't change.

As Saspro says, the EU courts only interfere when laws are unjust - they sent RIPA back to the House 3 times, because it breaches the human rights convention, for example. Are you saying that you'd prefer the UK to make its own laws, enslaving its citizens and nobody can interfere with it? And the European Court of Justice is a European court, not a European Union court, the UK will still be subject to it as a last instance even after Brexit. It actually precedes the EU.
I will give you that the EU does put out regulations that need to be put into law, but the UK has agreed to these and has had input into them. It is not as if these regulations are made without feedback and input from the member countries.

But the UK won't be able to trade freely. They will have to get in line and make new treaties with each nation that they already deal with, before they can continue trading with them... The EU also has a lot more power than the UK, when it comes to making deals, the EU can, generally, make better deals, because it has more economic power. And you can't just trade with anyone you want, the US sanctions on Iran, for example, would still block the UK from dealing with Iran, if the UK wants to continue to do business with the USA.

The free movement is one of the things I found was the most useful. I can pop down and visit friends in Italy on a whim, no passport, no visa, just hop in the car. The same for a day out in France, Holland, Czech or Poland. Coming back from the former East Block can get you stopped by Customs for importing too many cigarettes etc. but generally the free movement is a boon. There are limitations on the movements of immigrants within the EU, and the UK has been spared the real headache of refugees over the last few years. The UK will accept the same number of refugees over the next 5 years as the State of Baden-Württembag was accepting in a month in 2016.

The payments - you can get that back in grants and relief payments. Flood victims, for example, often get payouts from the EU to help rebuild, scientific research is also funded by the EU, farming subsidies etc. But the UK refused to let companies and citizens benefit for a long time, so they could re-fill the coffers at the end of the year with a big rebate that balanced out their own incompetences.

And, again, you need to trade off those payments against how much benefit membership brings you - freedom to do business throughout the EU with much less paperwork. Add up all the time spent on doing customs paperwork, additional border patrols and crossing points, increased controls, lost sales etc. and you quickly negate the membership fees. Subtract the above mentioned subsidies and funding for businesses that is a big deficit for leaving.

So what you save in not paying the EU, you will pay out in additional red tape, border forces, investing in research, flood relief etc. And you will have reduced business opportunities, meaning reduced income and reduced taxes paid by companies.

I will give you 2 points that can be argued either way, but the rest don't really hold water, at least not without a better explanation of what you mean.

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Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:08 am
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big_D wrote:
MrStevenRogers wrote:
sovereignty
own laws with no out side interference ie. eu courts
trade freely with who we like without eu interference, own trade deals
no more free movement and the ability to control all immigration
no more massive payments to an un-elected body ie. eu

are they good enough there are more ...


Sorry Steven, and it really pains me to write this. I wish you had provided a bit more background on your arguments, but the bullet points you have provided have little merit.

The UK already has sovereignty. That won't change.

As Saspro says, the EU courts only interfere when laws are unjust - they sent RIPA back to the House 3 times, because it breaches the human rights convention, for example. Are you saying that you'd prefer the UK to make its own laws, enslaving its citizens and nobody can interfere with it? And the European Court of Justice is a European court, not a European Union court, the UK will still be subject to it as a last instance even after Brexit. It actually precedes the EU.
I will give you that the EU does put out regulations that need to be put into law, but the UK has agreed to these and has had input into them. It is not as if these regulations are made without feedback and input from the member countries.

But the UK won't be able to trade freely. They will have to get in line and make new treaties with each nation that they already deal with, before they can continue trading with them... The EU also has a lot more power than the UK, when it comes to making deals, the EU can, generally, make better deals, because it has more economic power. And you can't just trade with anyone you want, the US sanctions on Iran, for example, would still block the UK from dealing with Iran, if the UK wants to continue to do business with the USA.

The free movement is one of the things I found was the most useful. I can pop down and visit friends in Italy on a whim, no passport, no visa, just hop in the car. The same for a day out in France, Holland, Czech or Poland. Coming back from the former East Block can get you stopped by Customs for importing too many cigarettes etc. but generally the free movement is a boon. There are limitations on the movements of immigrants within the EU, and the UK has been spared the real headache of refugees over the last few years. The UK will accept the same number of refugees over the next 5 years as the State of Baden-Württembag was accepting in a month in 2016.

The payments - you can get that back in grants and relief payments. Flood victims, for example, often get payouts from the EU to help rebuild, scientific research is also funded by the EU, farming subsidies etc. But the UK refused to let companies and citizens benefit for a long time, so they could re-fill the coffers at the end of the year with a big rebate that balanced out their own incompetences.

And, again, you need to trade off those payments against how much benefit membership brings you - freedom to do business throughout the EU with much less paperwork. Add up all the time spent on doing customs paperwork, additional border patrols and crossing points, increased controls, lost sales etc. and you quickly negate the membership fees. Subtract the above mentioned subsidies and funding for businesses that is a big deficit for leaving.

So what you save in not paying the EU, you will pay out in additional red tape, border forces, investing in research, flood relief etc. And you will have reduced business opportunities, meaning reduced income and reduced taxes paid by companies.

I will give you 2 points that can be argued either way, but the rest don't really hold water, at least not without a better explanation of what you mean.



this is why its wasted time trying to put anything across to anybody wishing to remain as its only the minority remain point of view that counts. the majority leave point of view is disregarded by minority remain but its the majority leave vote that has won several times. we are leaving the EU, like it or not ...

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Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:17 pm
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Thing is Steve - the majority of BigD's answers are not points of view. They are the reality.

It's all very well seeing the world through the Farrage distortion field but it does not make it true.

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Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:53 pm
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didgeman wrote:
Thing is Steve - the majority of BigD's answers are not points of view. They are the reality.

It's all very well seeing the world through the Farrage distortion field but it does not make it true.


the only distortion field i am aware of is projected by the EU ...

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Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:57 pm
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MrStevenRogers wrote:
this is why its wasted time trying to put anything across to anybody wishing to remain as its only the minority remain point of view that counts. the majority leave point of view is disregarded by minority remain but its the majority leave vote that has won several times. we are leaving the EU, like it or not ...

Thing is Steve - the majority of BigD's answers are not points of view. They are the reality.



I agree with BigD BUT I also believe in democracy - I would rather remain but we voted (wrongly IMHO) to leave so we need to leave - the question is is it via the agreement reached by T.May or a hard Brexit (and any politician saying they can get a better deal by October is talking through his orifice)

Its that question that I think should be put to a 2nd referendum. after all when people voted to leave they did not have the details of what they were voting for - now they do and if they want a complete split aka hard Brexit then so be it

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Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:57 pm
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MrStevenRogers wrote:
didgeman wrote:
Thing is Steve - the majority of BigD's answers are not points of view. They are the reality.

It's all very well seeing the world through the Farrage distortion field but it does not make it true.


the only distortion field i am aware of is projected by the EU ...

Isn't that the whole point of distortion fields?

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Fri Jul 05, 2019 8:11 am
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John_Vella wrote:
MrStevenRogers wrote:
didgeman wrote:
Thing is Steve - the majority of BigD's answers are not points of view. They are the reality.

It's all very well seeing the world through the Farrage distortion field but it does not make it true.


the only distortion field i am aware of is projected by the EU ...

Isn't that the whole point of distortion fields?


i believe that the distortion field is at full force with 3 new shiny eu presidents all of which were not elected.
along with a tarnished ECB president, but lets not go into all there murky backgrounds ...

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Sat Jul 06, 2019 2:37 am
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https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseupr/2019/02/ ... reaucrats/

"To conclude, the claim ‘the EU is run by unelected bureaucrats’ exhibits a deep misunderstanding of decision-making and executive politics in the European Union, a misunderstanding of the role of the Commission and a misunderstanding of the EU’s accountability mechanisms. As a final note, there are less eurocrats assisting with running of the EU than unelected officials assisting with the management of major cities like Paris or London."

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Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:17 am
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didgeman wrote:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseupr/2019/02/19/is-the-european-union-governed-by-unelected-bureaucrats/

"To conclude, the claim ‘the EU is run by unelected bureaucrats’ exhibits a deep misunderstanding of decision-making and executive politics in the European Union, a misunderstanding of the role of the Commission and a misunderstanding of the EU’s accountability mechanisms. As a final note, there are less eurocrats assisting with running of the EU than unelected officials assisting with the management of major cities like Paris or London."


please enlightening me, bureaucrats, civil service etc are unelected (deals done in back rooms by whatever means). but the presidents of a Govt. or Parliament and the EU are what?.

are these presidents of the EU, bureaucrats, or are they elected representatives of that parliament. please enthral me ...

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Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:39 pm
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Brexiters always want other people to do the work. All the information about who is elected to which post in the EU setup is freely available for the price of a few minutes with a search engine.

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Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:15 am
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HeatherKay wrote:
Brexiters always want other people to do the work. All the information about who is elected to which post in the EU setup is freely available for the price of a few minutes with a search engine.


but my point is who elected these 3 kings ? ...

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Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:45 pm
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Which three kings?

I find your method asking obfuscated questions as ways of scoring points difficult to follow.

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Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:47 pm
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HeatherKay wrote:
Which three kings?

I find your method asking obfuscated questions as ways of scoring points difficult to follow.


it would seem the only obfuscated part is who elected them, the 3 kings that is ...

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Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:49 pm
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There we go again. It’s like talking to a cryptic crossword.

:roll:

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Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:07 pm
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"Each new President is nominated by the European Council and formally elected by the European Parliament, for a five-year term. As of 2019, the current President is Jean-Claude Juncker, who took office on 1 November 2014. ... Juncker is the twelfth President and his First Vice-President is Frans Timmermans."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President ... Commission

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