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Brexit Britain 
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big_D wrote:
The Canadians have a deal. The UK can't just tag on Canada's coattails, they will still have to make their own arrangement. They might be able to take CETA as a starting point, but their is no guarantee that they will get the same treatment.

The UK has different strengths and weaknesses compared to Canada, so will have to make the deal on its own merits.


big-D i will give you one word and one word only ... precedent ...

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Mon Oct 31, 2016 10:39 am
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MrStevenRogers wrote:
jonbwfc wrote:
pcernie wrote:
UK seeking tariff-free EU deal for carmakers, Nissan told | Business | The Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... sunderland

Trebles all round!

You know what would be a really easy way to get tariffs-free trade, don't you?


but do you know how to get tariff free trade without the baggage of open borders and free movement, you do dont you? ...


You mean the great many advantages and non-existent baggage of open borders and free movement.

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Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:41 pm
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which EU are you a member of, ours or theirs ...

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Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:47 pm
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MrStevenRogers wrote:
which EU are you a member of, ours or theirs ...


If your grasp of reality is so slim that you think there are two EUs, you probably need to do some basic education before continuing.

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Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:52 pm
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jonlumb wrote:
MrStevenRogers wrote:
which EU are you a member of, ours or theirs ...


If your grasp of reality is so slim that you think there are two EUs, you probably need to do some basic education before continuing.


my grasp of reality is so limited it involves the UK voted 'OUT' of the EU. all i am asking is which EU are you a member of. OURS or theirs ...

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Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:34 pm
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MrStevenRogers wrote:
jonlumb wrote:
MrStevenRogers wrote:
which EU are you a member of, ours or theirs ...


If your grasp of reality is so slim that you think there are two EUs, you probably need to do some basic education before continuing.


my grasp of reality is so limited it involves the UK voted 'OUT' of the EU. all i am asking is which EU are you a member of. OURS or theirs ...


There isn't an "our" EU, nor a "their" EU, there's just the EU, which the UK is part of until the end of negociations post an Article 50 notification. So you can ask the question all you want, but without a lot of clarification it doesn't make any sense so it's impossible to answer.

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Mon Oct 31, 2016 2:38 pm
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MrStevenRogers wrote:
big_D wrote:
The Canadians have a deal. The UK can't just tag on Canada's coattails, they will still have to make their own arrangement. They might be able to take CETA as a starting point, but their is no guarantee that they will get the same treatment.

The UK has different strengths and weaknesses compared to Canada, so will have to make the deal on its own merits.


big-D i will give you one word and one word only ... precedent ...

Which is what I said. The UK can cite CETA and say they want the same treatment (precedent). But it is only a starting point. If the UK isn't generating at least as much business as Canada, then they won't get the "favourable" terms that Canada got.

Of course, if the UK can show that they are actually taking more trade from the EU than Canada it would be possible to go for better terms. But if the UK can't show that it is worth more than Canada, the terms offered will be worse. Either way, it will be a long, drawn out process until the trade deal is in place.

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Mon Oct 31, 2016 4:15 pm
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Fundamental difference : this is a negotiation, not a court case. In court cases precedent (usually) has an 'objective' authority, which both sides feel obliged to accept and which is arbitrated and enforced by the judge. There is no such obligation to precedent in trade negotiations and there are no judges to make rulings. They are individual unto themselves, entirely between the two parties. If the UK sites the CETA deal and the EU says 'Well, we don't care. You are not Canada.' there's no way the UK could compel the EU to accept the precedent. There is no body to appeal to that could force the EU to change it's position.

'precedent' works in law though an establishment of tradition and behaviour, enforced by independent arbiters. None of these things exist in international trade deals.
Well, we have the WTO, but the terms the WTO enforce are already well known and the UK would be advised to do pretty much anything to avoid having to accept those terms.

It may be that the UK will get a good trade treaty with the EU. It may be that they will not. We don't even know what the UK's opening negotiating position is yet, so it's pretty much impossible to say what the end result will be. However, the CETA agreement is irrelevant unless both sides agree to make it relevant. Is there any hint or indication from the EU that they want to? I haven't seen any.

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Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:42 pm
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jonbwfc wrote:
Fundamental difference : this is a negotiation, not a court case. In court cases precedent (usually) has an 'objective' authority, which both sides feel obliged to accept and which is arbitrated and enforced by the judge. There is no such obligation to precedent in trade negotiations and there are no judges to make rulings. They are individual unto themselves, entirely between the two parties. If the UK sites the CETA deal and the EU says 'Well, we don't care. You are not Canada.' there's no way the UK could compel the EU to accept the precedent. There is no body to appeal to that could force the EU to change it's position.

'precedent' works in law though an establishment of tradition and behaviour, enforced by independent arbiters. None of these things exist in international trade deals.
Well, we have the WTO, but the terms the WTO enforce are already well known and the UK would be advised to do pretty much anything to avoid having to accept those terms.

It may be that the UK will get a good trade treaty with the EU. It may be that they will not. We don't even know what the UK's opening negotiating position is yet, so it's pretty much impossible to say what the end result will be. However, the CETA agreement is irrelevant unless both sides agree to make it relevant. Is there any hint or indication from the EU that they want to? I haven't seen any. Jon


Precedent. 'an earlier event or action that is regarded as an example or guide to be considered in subsequent similar circumstances.'

as stated before after the 2 year negotiation period no deal is reached then WTO rules are automatic. i believe we should not negotiate just trigger A50 and leave then trade with the EU using WTO cutting the 2 year period to zero.

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Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:53 am
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At what point will you comprehend that trade under the default WTO agreements will be utterly catastrophic for UK exports, and in turn UK businesses and the UK economy? It's quite literally the worst trade options you can have short of being under a trade embargo.

As far as I can see, your primary focus is to kick out as many foreigners as possible and no price is to high to pay to that end. Am I wrong?

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Tue Nov 01, 2016 8:26 am
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Some deal has been done with Nissan to keep them on side. We don’t know what the details are because it’s meant to be a trade secret. That means that Parliament isn”t allowed to know either. Nissan is partly owned by the French government via their holdings in Renault.

So I guess we won’t know if BMW (Mini, Rolls Royce), Ford, General Motors, VW (who build Bentleys in this country) will be asking for similar secret deals to keep here. I expect the deal involves money changing hand in some fashion. No accountability. Not a sniff of any kind of control being taken back. The government can’t guarantee anything insofar as our relationship with the EU yet - negotiations haven’t even begun.

Considering Sunderland voted out, you’d think that they’d be happy to see Nissan up sticks to a factory in France, really.

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Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:34 pm
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jonlumb wrote:
At what point will you comprehend that trade under the default WTO agreements will be utterly catastrophic for UK exports, and in turn UK businesses and the UK economy? It's quite literally the worst trade options you can have short of being under a trade embargo.

As far as I can see, your primary focus is to kick out as many foreigners as possible and no price is to high to pay to that end. Am I wrong?


we have had all the tales of the apocalypse from the remain camp during the referendum. but the world has not stopped and the sky hasn't fallen.
using WTO will not be another imagined apocalypse that the remain camp hopes it will be far from it. it will be a complete success ...

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Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:23 pm
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paulzolo wrote:
Some deal has been done with Nissan to keep them on side. We don’t know what the details are because it’s meant to be a trade secret. That means that Parliament isn”t allowed to know either. Nissan is partly owned by the French government via their holdings in Renault.

So I guess we won’t know if BMW (Mini, Rolls Royce), Ford, General Motors, VW (who build Bentleys in this country) will be asking for similar secret deals to keep here. I expect the deal involves money changing hand in some fashion. No accountability. Not a sniff of any kind of control being taken back. The government can’t guarantee anything insofar as our relationship with the EU yet - negotiations haven’t even begun.

Considering Sunderland voted out, you’d think that they’d be happy to see Nissan up sticks to a factory in France, really.


a deal of some kind has been done without doubt. the Govt. have already stated that they may reduce business tax to 10% with a possible reduction to zero% over a given period of time for any existing or new large businesses that set up in the UK after we finally leave the EU cant wait for it to happen just to prove all the naysayers wrong ...

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Tue Nov 01, 2016 2:31 pm
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MrStevenRogers wrote:
jonlumb wrote:
At what point will you comprehend that trade under the default WTO agreements will be utterly catastrophic for UK exports, and in turn UK businesses and the UK economy? It's quite literally the worst trade options you can have short of being under a trade embargo.

As far as I can see, your primary focus is to kick out as many foreigners as possible and no price is to high to pay to that end. Am I wrong?


we have had all the tales of the apocalypse from the remain camp during the referendum. but the world has not stopped and the sky hasn't fallen.
using WTO will not be another imagined apocalypse that the remain camp hopes it will be far from it. it will be a complete success ...


I see you've decided to go as an ostrich for Halloween this year.

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Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:05 pm
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jonlumb wrote:
MrStevenRogers wrote:
jonlumb wrote:
At what point will you comprehend that trade under the default WTO agreements will be utterly catastrophic for UK exports, and in turn UK businesses and the UK economy? It's quite literally the worst trade options you can have short of being under a trade embargo.

As far as I can see, your primary focus is to kick out as many foreigners as possible and no price is to high to pay to that end. Am I wrong?


we have had all the tales of the apocalypse from the remain camp during the referendum. but the world has not stopped and the sky hasn't fallen.
using WTO will not be another imagined apocalypse that the remain camp hopes it will be far from it. it will be a complete success ...


I see you've decided to go as an ostrich for Halloween this year.


no i was dressed up as Jean-Claude Juncker ...

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Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:34 pm
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