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Is Madge right?
http://x404.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23504		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  pcernie [ Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Is Madge right?
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/m ... in-society

I can't help thinking 'women's rights' (oversimplified for brevity!) shouldn't come at the cost of the campaigns for others. Mind you, it does raise the notion of groups uniting to be stronger and asking for change across the board instead of distinct groups.

On the female issue, I think a major problem is that women tend to be divisive amongst each other! That's really bad from a starting point of lower pay, sexism, historical patriarchy, you name it.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Madge right?
Bollocks. There are any number of groups of people who are more marginalised than 'women', as if you could marginalise 50% of the population anyway. Try having a diagnosed mental illness for a start..
Author:  l3v1ck [ Thu Mar 12, 2015 10:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Madge right?
No, her songs have just been [LIFTED] for years.
Author:  big_D [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Madge right?
Marginalised how?

I've had more female bosses than male bosses through my career. And they generally seem to have more rights than I do, at least in the workplace.
Author:  TheFrenchun [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Madge right?
I think that statement is a bit crazy.
There's still work to do to improve equality, in particular parental leave sharing, and fair promotion systems in companies.


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Author:  big_D [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Madge right?
Ah, Okay. Here the father also has the same entitlement to paternity leave as the mother to maternity leave.

Maybe I've just worked for "progressive" companies, but I have never seen that women are disadvantaged in promotion chances, in fact in most of them there were seemingly more women managers than men.
Author:  TheFrenchun [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Madge right?
big_D wrote:
Ah, Okay. Here the father also has the same entitlement to paternity leave as the mother to maternity leave.

Maybe I've just worked for "progressive" companies, but I have never seen that women are disadvantaged in promotion chances, in fact in most of them there were seemingly more women managers than men.

Women have to be quite ruthless and nasty, or exhibit men behaviour to be promoted. Generally women get promoted on proven abilities when men get promoted on potential.


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Author:  jonbwfc [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Madge right?
TheFrenchun wrote:
big_D wrote:
Ah, Okay. Here the father also has the same entitlement to paternity leave as the mother to maternity leave.
Maybe I've just worked for "progressive" companies, but I have never seen that women are disadvantaged in promotion chances, in fact in most of them there were seemingly more women managers than men.

Women have to be quite ruthless and nasty, or exhibit men behaviour to be promoted.

That may be your experience but I've had female bosses that exhibited none of those behaviours.

TheFrenchun wrote:
Generally women get promoted on proven abilities when men get promoted on potential.

The people doing the promoting are idiots unless they consider both.
Author:  big_D [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Madge right?
jonbwfc wrote:
TheFrenchun wrote:
Women have to be quite ruthless and nasty, or exhibit men behaviour to be promoted.

That may be your experience but I've had female bosses that exhibited none of those behaviours.

The same here, the female bosses have generally been much more pleasant to work for, they are more understanding and generally better people orientated.
Author:  cloaked_wolf [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Madge right?
I've worked for different teams and specialists. I've worked with:

- male seniors who are arrogant, aggressive, demeaning, rude etc
- male seniors who are pleasant, caring, understanding etc
- female seniors who are arrogant, aggressive, demeaning, rude etc
- female seniors who are pleasant, caring, understanding etc

I've always respected those who don't show arrogance or aggression when in stressful situations and are able to think things through rather than ranting, and have tried to model myself on them.
Author:  Spreadie [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Madge right?
Quote:
Is Madge right?

No. Madge is talking out of her ar$e.
Author:  pcernie [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Madge right?
Most of my bosses have been female, and only one of them didn't go on the defensive over the slightest issue. The blokes have all been easy going.
Author:  ProfessorF [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Madge right?
http://everydaysexism.com

A lot of the TV/Film production offices I've experienced have been run by women.
On one occasion, I was told that I was only hired because I was big and strong and could move boxes of paper around easily. Yeah, thanks for that - this is a career I'm looking for, not exercise tips.
A lot of those women have been complete bitches. Not all, but most.

Where I work now does have a bit of a problem with promoting women. The only female member of the senior management team will retire in a few months. At the moment, unless an external applicant has ovaries, the only replacements being bandied about are male.

I'm not a woman, so I can't speak about their experience with much authority. However, if a lot of women are saying that they experience sexism daily and aren't afforded the same privilege as men, then perhaps there's something to it.
It is, after all, demonstrable that you're probably going to earn less than a man with the same qualifications performing the same job. Or at least I've seen that where I work, but I've seen that mentioned else where.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Madge right?
ProfessorF wrote:
http://everydaysexism.com

"The plural of' anecdote' is not 'evidence'".

Quote:
I'm not a woman, so I can't speak about their experience with much authority. However, if a lot of women are saying that they experience sexism daily and aren't afforded the same privilege as men, then perhaps there's something to it.

I would say that, IMO, it seems to generally boil down to the issue that women aren't afforded the same privileges as some men are. And the comparison always seems to be between the two (e.g. men who are CEOs vs. women who aren't), which to me completely ignores the large mass of the population, both male and female, who are largely neither sinner nor sinned against. Nobody wants to be a morlock and everybody feels like they should be an eloi and they aren't because somebody, somewhere isn't treating them fairly. I can only quote something posted in the wake of Terry Pratchett's death..

Quote:
TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY.


The universe is not 'fair'. It just is. Make of it what you will, better or worse than it was when you entered it. Be kind to everyone you meet, whatever their genes have made them, and maybe they'll be kind to you as well. But don't expect the universe to change because it really doesn't care about you very much at all.

ProfessorF wrote:
It is, after all, demonstrable that you're probably going to earn less than a man with the same qualifications performing the same job. Or at least I've seen that where I work, but I've seen that mentioned else where.

It's not where I work. Same grade = same money and the presence or absence of X & Y chromosomes is irrelevant.
Author:  ProfessorF [ Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Madge right?
jonbwfc wrote:

The universe is not 'fair'. It just is. Make of it what you will, better or worse than it was when you entered it. Be kind to everyone you meet, whatever their genes have made them, and maybe they'll be kind to you as well. But don't expect the universe to change because it really doesn't care about you very much at all.


And that, dear reader, is perhaps the worst excuse for man's folly.
Discrimination of whatever colour cannot simply be shrugged off by saying 'Gee, ain't the universe a tough place?', for then we may as well all vote for Farage.
What you can do, however, is take a broad look at the figures. Numbers are good. They provide insight without emotion. How you read them is another matter, but the data is out there.
Take away colour, 'race' or ethnic background, and you're still left with the fact that in Europe's top 100 companies, 89% of the executive committees are male.
Given that women have long been able to enjoy the same level of education and experience as those men, why is there the disparity?
Do women not want to have those jobs?
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