The target market for tablets are mainly consumers with much less PC knowledge, most of them wouldn't have a clue how to transfer the recovery partition to an SD card and remove it from the tablet itself - nor should they have to in this day and age. To have two-thirds of your storage (on the 64Gb model) taken up with the OS and recovery partition is just plain lunacy. I'd love to see how the marketing explains that little discrepancy.

Why does Windows even need a recovery partition nowadays, I'm surprised they haven't done what Apple have with their desktop OS, you boot into Internet Recovery and download a new base OS, then re-download any app purchases after that and restore your data from the Cloud backup. That would make more sense, especially on a tablet, where the type of buyers aren't going to want to fiddle about with such stuff. If Apple can put something like that in place, which they did with Lion 10.7, then I'm sure Microsoft could (or other 3rd party manufacturers, if they've altered the base Windows 8 install).

I know iOS is a different beast, but that only takes up about 1Gb on the device - OK, Windows 8 is a full OS, even on a tablet, but still you'd think there was a better way to manage the recovery on a device like a tablet without sucking 40-odd Gb off the storage before you start!

Completely agree that this is lunacy. Imagine buying a 500bhp Ferrari only to find you can only ever use 250bhp of it. You'd be outrun by me in my Golf!

Even back in the early 90s, when I first got into computers, I thought it was odd that things were being sold with 250MB HDD but because of formatting and OS/software, you lost about 50MB, so realistically only had 250MB free. I don't mind which way it is but all computer related stuff (phones, portable computers, desktops etc) IMO should have a figure stating total memory size and one stating free/remaining memory size with one in large letters.

We all tend to assume this, but I've never seen any actual evidence to back it up. As far as I know, nobody's ever done any kind of demographic study of tablet users to establish they're less technologically educated than the population as a whole. Most of the people on here are techy, lots of them have bought tablets. With their own money. We ourselves give a lie to the idea. I think the notion 'people buy tablets because they don't understand PCs' is an assumption we can't make. I think it's just as likely 'people buy tablets because they don't want PCs'. But we just don't know, so to start a chain of logic based on the assumption the only people who are buying tablets are technological ignoramuses is a very rocky road to start down.

Aside from the point that there are a lot of people who buy PCs who wouldn't know a recovery partition from a poke in the eye either...


Because Apple know what's in the BIOSes in various models of the hardware that runs their OS and they have a fairly limited set of drivers to worry about. Microsoft don't have that luxury. There are plenty of PCs that simply aren't equipped to be able to boot off an internet hosted service. MS could limit windows 8 to those that could, but that would be a major roadblock to uptake. Plus the library of drivers MS would have to maintain on the serve would be vast.

Internet restore is a thing that falls out of the fact Apple control both the hardware specs and the OS. Microsoft aren't in that privileged position. In fact, I'd think it would be something that the hardware manufacturers would be more likely to supply than MS themselves - HP or Dell are better equipped to know what their various models need to have to boot.

You probably could do with windows RT systems and windows phone 8 at a push, but I don't think it's feasible for windows desktop PCs.

Now I think about it, I'm not sure you can do this with an iPad. I think you'd have to plug it into a PC with iTunes installed to restore it it if it coughs one.


Indeed, but not necessarily easily. Pus I think the size different is down to their original purpose - iOS was a phone OS from the start, so it had a requirement to be light-footed and use limited storage space. Windows 8 started off as a desktop OS, with big beefy CPUs and storage space to burn. It's easy to bloat things, it's much harder to slim them down.

I don't think the Pro is aimed at "consumers".

It's too expensive and the battery life isn't great. The advantage is that it runs "normal" Windows software, and it should not surprise that it has all the baggage that "normal" Windows machines come with. It's no different at all than a laptop.

I agree with CW, the amount of memory total and free should be displayed... But then it should be the same for all devices.

Windows PCs don't have a ROM, so the OS goes on the hard drive. The drive size has been quoted this way since the early 80s, it is only now an issue, because iOS and Android makers report it differently.

If you are being fair, my "16GB" Galaxy SIII has 32GB of storage, 16GB is the OS, another 4GB is lost to formatting, settings and bloatware. But Samsung don't mention the 16GB of storage for the OS, because the user doesn't see it.

PSN is undergoing yet more maintenance - so that's another chocolate fireguard put up.

Yes but most people buy a tablet with the idea of using that storage space for apps. As your Samsung only advertises itself as 16 Gb it is not confusing the customers, even if it has more that is hidden away from users.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/02/08/nbc-c ... o-no-harm/

It is interesting that they are having problems with some other shows.

Most users don't have a clue about storage space, full-stop.

My girlfriend has an iPhone 3GS, she doesn't have a clue how much memory it has, she has never even attached it to a PC and she doesn't have an Apple account, so no content or apps on the things... The same goes for her brother, he has an htc Sensation, he hasn't opened a Google account and he doesn't store and content on it.

Surface versus MacBook Air, who's being dishonest?
The production model of the surface has between 6 and 7 GiB (binary) more than the previous announcement, because the dev who released the information was working on a pre-production build, which included debug code.

The Surface actually comes with more free space than the equivalent MacBook Air and while Microsoft use the binary Gigabyte (GiB) for measuring and Apple using the decimal Gigabyte (GB) for measuring, the Microsoft Gigabyte is worth an extra 2.4% over the Apple Gigabyte.

To answer some of the questions above:

Why does the Surface need a recovery partition?
Why does the Apple need a recovery partition? If something gets corrupted, you can restore back to defaults, without having to find a DVD or USB stick, whilst on the road. Apple started off using USB sticks with the Air, but they switched to a hidden partition as well and downloads from the Internet.

The MacBook Air tested still had a 7GB or so hidden recovery partition. I don't know if that is the current generation or one generation old, the article doesn't say.

Would naive users make recovery media and delete the recovery partition?[b]
Probably not, until they ran out of space and had inserted a MicroSD card and that was also full... But there again, most of them probably don't have a clue how much a Gigabyte is anyway and how much memory do you need to play Angry Birds and web surf from the couch?

It is only really an issue for those that want to store all their media collection on the device and use it for consumption.

And if that is what you are doing with it, then you are better off saving some money and getting a Surface RT, iPad or Android Tablet, not a full blown PC with touchscreen. If they are going to fork out money for a couch-surfer, they are more likely going to go for a cheap (Nexus 7, Kindle Fire etc.) or mid-range tablet (iPad, Nexus 10 etc.) than a full blown Ultrabook without a keyboard, at a higher price.

I think the main audience for the Surface Pro is going to be the people who have held off buying a tablet until now, because they want a full PC in tablet form. We are talking about people who are looking at MacBook Air and Ultrabooks, but want the "tablet experience" with it as well.

The Pro in the name should give it away, this isn't designed as an iPad competitor, it is designed as a "professional" business tool. My current business PC has over 930GB from 1TB free after 2 years of use, and if I cleared out the junk, it would have more free.

[b]Apple control the eco-system, MS don't
In this case they do! They are providing hardware made to their specification and software from their own stable, so that argument doesn't wash.

That said, Windows Phone and Windows RT can be set back to factory settings, like an iPhone or iPad, without the need for over-the-air anything, they only use the over the air for updates. It is a different matter for a system with a writable OS partition. If that becomes corrupt, they can't use the over-the-air option, because you can't boot the computer far enough to get a network connection. This is why you need a recovery partition, whether that is full-fat, with everything needed to restore the PC or just enough to get online, if a network connection is available, and re-download the remaining 6-7GB is another question.

If I am out on the road, using a tethered mobile phone as my internet connection, with a 1GB a month allowance, I'm not going to have much luck restoring a MacBook Air, with hotel Wi-Fi, it might be finished by the time I get up in the morning. With the Surface, on the other hand, it would be finished in 20 minutes or so.

Personally, I'd like to have that option, then it is up to me, whether I decide to push that partition off to a USB stick and risk forgetting it, when I travel.

iOS only takes up 1GB on the device
Actually, iOS (plus the pre-installed apps) can take up around 31GB of space, 30GB of that are the ROM. If Apple listed it the same way as the Surface, then the "32GB" iPad would actually be a 60.5GiB iPad with 30.2GiB free.

At least with the Surface, you can make decisions and uninstall features you don't want and increase that storage space or add a MicroSD card for an additional 64GiB of storage (theoretically 2TiB of additional storage, but there are no 2TiB MicroSD cards yet).



I am looking at getting a Surface or similar device, because I can plug it into a Dock at home or at work and get full connectivity, monitor, keyboard and mouse + touch and use my full palette of desktop applications that I need on a daily basis, then I can grab it and use it in tablet mode for meetings or when traveling. The only downside would be longer travel distances, where the 4-5 hours of battery life would be a limiting factor, but that would be about once a year or so and I'd also have my smartphone and Kindle to drop back to in those situations.

The thing is, between the price and the software the RT doesn't really add up IIRC , leaving you with the Pro.

Can you rephrase that? I don't quite get what you mean...

If I was looking purely for a tablet as a second device, I'd probably get an RT tablet over the iPad. But I think I'll either be getting a tablet that is a complete package, replacing my current laptop or I'll be getting a desktop next time round and not bothering with a tablet at all.

Sorry, I was suggesting that the RT was a bit 'Win 7 Starter' and with software issues of all description, and it's sales are anecdotally disappointing as a result, apparently. I'm only going by skim-read articles though, I was interested in the keyboard and potential for proper software with something approaching tablet battery life, but we're not there yet. And certainly not at M$ prices.

Hmm, MS prices? It is cheaper than an equivalent iPad... I haven't used the Surface RT, but I have used Windows 8 on a couple of machines and I have played around with a couple of RT based tablets, iPads and Android tablets and I have to say at the moment, if I had to buy a tablet, I'd probably go with an RT based one.

The biggest problem with the Surface is that they are / were only available directly from Microsoft. In the US and UK, you can now buy them in a couple of stores like Staples, but not from the likes of Amazon or general High Street retailers, at least not here in Germany.

Have the prices came down then? Once you added the keyboard it got silly before... Though this thing with the software puzzles me, is it the ARM chip not playing nice/vice versa?