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Teen MPs put grown-ups to shame 
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Alexgadgetman wrote:
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Er, I am talking about the abilities of Parliament - which includes the House of Lords. I am not just describing the powers of the House of Commons


Ok then, but I was only trying to avoid this because generally the mainstay of power in British politics has historically been divided between the three major bodies - Commons, Lords, Monarch. Thus I feel it is an important distiniction to make that the Lords should generally be seen to be slightly 'above' if that is the right word normal politics. The reason I think its important is that over all three bodies (and perhaps the judiary and EU law should now be taken into account) sovereignty should be held - and so the distinction between each house of Parliament should be made (after all, if election timing wasnt an important issue then why would it be singled out for the Lords to retain a form of Veto over?).


When I say "Parliament" I mean both Houses. If I meant either the Commons or the Lords I would say so. I don't think either House should be elevated over the other - both Houses have important historical and constitutional functions (as does the Crown) and together wield Parliamentary Sovereignty.

Alexgadgetman wrote:
The problem in our consitition is that there are precious few methods of restraining a government from exacting whatever policy it wants, so conventions are one of the strongest defences the people have. The conventions of following a referendum result, the Queen not rejecting Bills and the PM being leader of the largest Party are all embedded into our constitution though not written. They are 'given' as such, I wonder what peoples reactions would be if the Tories won the next election and the Queen decided she wanted to keep Brown as PM...


I agree that restraining government in Parliament is difficult - the ruling Party typically has a majority (though I will stress the difference here between Government and Party, with statutory limits on the number of MPs in government). As for choice of PM, if Parliament can't decide the Queen will. If Parliament puts forward an unsuitable candidate or can't decide then the Queen can make a choice instead. See the Douglas-Home case for example.

Alexgadgetman wrote:
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The Queen does indeed still hold many reserve powers


Though it should probably be added that although the transfer of real power occured hundreds of years ago (thinking early 1800's during the Napoleonic Wars) pretty fully to Parliament it is only now that these are being reinforced through Acts (such as in the last year or so Royal Prerogative for example the ability to dissolve Parliament has passed away from the Monarch and now requires acent of the Hous of Commons to occur, also the ability to declare war.) The whole point behind this is that Parliament has effectively exacted these powers for hundreds of years, the Queen although techinically in posessiton of these powers by convention cannot use them.


QED. My original point - Parliament is Sovereign, and ever since the civil war can even usurp powers of the Crown. I would note however that the changes to the dissolution of Parliament were to stop opportunistic Prime Ministers calling elections. I'd also like to point out that it's by convention that the Queen does not use her powers, not that she can not.

Alexgadgetman wrote:
This would link back to the whole ability of Parliament to just repeal any Act it pleases, it wouldnt be quite to simple, because although it may have those powers it does not have the ability to exact them due to convention. (this isnt universal, and is mainly applicable to the topic of referendum).


I still have yet to see an example? Parliament can literally repeal, legislate or amend at will. It might well have serious consequences, but that wouldn't prevent Parliament from doing it. And as I've said before, Parliament is not bound by the result of a referendum.

Alexgadgetman wrote:
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I am not familiar with any law that can not be 'technically' repealed - as I've asserted before the power of Parliament is not limited


That was more a reference to universally across the modern democracy's. As to say that in all countries it is possible for the constitution to be changed - and that not only ours has this downfall.


I've never once said that having an uncodified constitution is a "downfall". I personally like the fact that Parliament has the power to act as it sees fit, it means we can avoid absurd situations because of legal constraints. However, with that come dangers obviously - but then having codified constitutions has never stopped dictators.

Alexgadgetman wrote:
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That particular referendum was not really a referendum on the Act as it was to determine if the United Kingdom should remain in the EEC.


Yes, but it was the Act (European Communities Act 1972 I think) that put us in the ECC, its repeal would reverse this. The Act determined that we were to enter the ECC, any result would be a opinion on that Act.


I suppose so, but that's not really what I was getting at. And as I've said before, the result wasn't binding. :)

Alexgadgetman wrote:
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And even then the government only called for a referendum as the Cabinet was split on the issue.


Which is surely for the best, the government should only need to call referendum when actually required, yes they occur to stop governments splitting yet they also solve major constitutional issues (it is unlikely a tax or similar issue would divide the cabinet in such a way).


Even then they're only a new phenomena. I didn't see any referendums held for the Acts of Union.

Alexgadgetman wrote:
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I think you're being rather condescending to the man in the street there, Parliament is not the be-all and end-all of scrutiny.


Not really, there are a number of disadvantages of referendum, such as the peoples inability to vote on the issue, instead giving a vote of confidence on the Government (and there is evidence to support this, ill try and dig some out if you require). Also the people can be swayed by the press, Joe Bloggs off the street will likely know only what the papers and press put across, without which he wold be totally benighted; his only option is a biased press, which can be distorted to suit. (Im sure Murdoch would have a field day).


Again with being condescending! You're portraying everyone as a moron who takes their lead from the Sun. There are millions of highly-educated people in this Country, many of whom are far more qualified than those who sit in Westminster.

Alexgadgetman wrote:
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MPs are often criticised for not appreciating how laws will affect the "man in the street"


Yet there is no easy viable direct democracy method to be applied largescale because it is unviable. After all, the people vote these 'representatives' in - surely the implied solution would be simple, choose someone else to vote for. (which is problematic because many vote for the Prime Minister and not the MP, or atleast have divided internest, but thats just a sign of a bad voting system and another issue entirely).


For direct democracy to be effective you'd need to give as much power as possible back to local areas. I'm a big believer in a PR electoral system with NO constituency link - that way you could raise your issue with an MP who is more likely to be sympathetic to your cause, much in the same way that you can lobby any Lord.

Alexgadgetman wrote:
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Of course that doesn't stop them ceding from the United Kingdom, but it certainly wouldn't be a clean break.


Never know, we might find out soon :)


Indeed, if Alex Salmond gets his way.

Alexgadgetman wrote:
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The only reason the Irish Republic could not ratify the Treaty is because their Constitution requires them to put the issue to referendum, and thus they could not proceed to ratify the Treaty without public consent - the outcome was binding.


Yes, but the point was (and this applies to the UK as well as the majority of other democratic states) that the Irish Republic had previous held a referndum on the issue in June 2008 on the issue, following this the Government was unable to just pass the idea anyway, they HAD to go back to referendum to decide the issue (there are no British examples because it has thus-far never been required).


You might remember that we were in fact due to hold a referendum on the issue. The government changed its mind - which the British government could do, the Irish government could not.

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Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:08 pm
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I don't think either House should be elevated over the other - both Houses have important historical and constitutional functions (as does the Crown) and together wield Parliamentary Sovereignty.


Agreed, although I would say that the House of Commons plays a more important role than either the House of Lords or Crown at the moment.

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If Parliament puts forward an unsuitable candidate or can't decide then the Queen can make a choice instead.


Well yes, but the example given is more down to a lack of party procedure in such an event. In reality there are now procedures in place to prevent such an instance from reoccuring (with all major three party's having leadership election processes. Such as for Brown).

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QED. My original point - Parliament is Sovereign, and ever since the civil war can even usurp powers of the Crown. I would note however that the changes to the dissolution of Parliament were to stop opportunistic Prime Ministers calling elections.


The changes would not achieve their aim though - any Party with a majority (unless a minority government, which is extremely rare) could use its MP's to call an election. Generally it will be able to muster a majority in the commons to call the election, over which the whips have influence.

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I'd also like to point out that it's by convention that the Queen does not use her powers, not that she can not.


Constitutionally cannot, due to convention, it becomes one and the same - yes there may be a blurred line but the fact remains that any usage of her powers would result in a constituional crisis. The idea that theoretically she 'could' use her powers is fine, but practically she no longer can. To the degree that it is unimaginable for her too anyway.

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I still have yet to see an example? Parliament can literally repeal, legislate or amend at will. It might well have serious consequences, but that wouldn't prevent Parliament from doing it. And as I've said before, Parliament is not bound by the result of a referendum.


Yet I think we may both have to concede here that the usage of referendum is too modern to have created any examples yet - there has not yet come a time when the government has fallen into the position where it wishes to repeal an Act passed/agreed by referendum. Only time will tell the eventual outcome of this, though I do believe that it will be forced to once again request the public opinions.

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I've never once said that having an uncodified constitution is a "downfall".


The problem is that is there a viable alternative which solves the issues of entrenchment yet stops stagnation?

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I suppose so, but that's not really what I was getting at.


Feel free to explain :)

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I didn't see any referendums held for the Acts of Union


Yes but you could also argue that we were not a democracy and so it would be rather admirable for a referendum to occur. In the 1818 election (or around then) there was only something like 40% seat contesting in the UK, and only 10% of men had the vote. There were different measurements to what was democratic in those centuries...

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You're portraying everyone as a moron who takes their lead from the Sun. There are millions of highly-educated people in this Country, many of whom are far more qualified than those who sit in Westminster.


Not at all! However I am saying that although there are millions of high-educated, there are even more millions of not so highly educated! The highly educated would become a minority, they could be easily overruled by sheer numbers. You would say that a reasonable amount (over 90%) of people in the UK understand political matters? Without this proportion a referendum is not representative of what is best for the people with an understanding of what they are voting on.

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I'm a big believer in a PR electoral system with NO constituency link


So a big pot of names where each party gets its fair share? But then not only do you get an indecisive government (where forming a majority takes months on end) but you would also have MP's that are not directly responsible to a small group of people, making it much harder to get rid of them. (not to mention letting loads of extremist party's into Parliament).

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You might remember that we were in fact due to hold a referendum on the issue. The government changed its mind - which the British government could do, the Irish government could not.


Yes, but this refers more to ability to create constitutional change than what I was referring to - which was the finality of the public decision in a referendum.


Sat Oct 31, 2009 11:45 pm
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