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UK shipyards: Five frigates at centre of new strategy 
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UK shipyards: Five frigates at centre of new strategy - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41171515

:lol:

Yeah.

The MoD want a highly ambitious logistical project done on the super cheap in a quick timeframe under the direction of Michael Fallon.

Right.

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Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:26 am
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We never seem to be skint enough not be able to afford warships.


Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:33 am
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They’ve found the Magic Money Tree! Hooray!

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Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:07 pm
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jonbwfc wrote:
We never seem to be skint enough not be able to afford warships.

You are joking. Almost all classes of warship see a reduction in numbers each time a new type comes out.
We've got 7 Astute class subs replacing 13 Swiftsure/Trafalgar class subs.
6 Type 45 detroyers replacing 14 Type 42's (okay a couple of them were lost in the Falklands, so lets say 12)
8 planned Type 26 and 5 planned Type 32 frigates replacing 14 Type 22 and 16 Type 23 frigates.
The only reason we're getting a second aircraft carrier is because the contracts Labour signed were so bad that it actually would have cost more to cancel one.

The Royal Navy is getting smaller and smaller all the time. The loss of frigates is the worst as they do most of the grunt work in day to day naval opperations.

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Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:48 am
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Agreed, but that's only half the story - we're getting less numbers because the ships are getting MUCH more expensive, the budget isn't falling at all really. A series of defense reviews have reduced the size of the RN but let's be frank here - the RN actually doesn't have a big global role any more. We can't at all sustain a navy to compete with Russia (despite their issues), the USA or China. What the RN actually spends most of it's a time doing - especially the frigates and destroyers - is relief work and what is actually law enforcement. When was the last time an RN ship fired a real shot in anger? The Falklands? That was 35 years ago. Most of the sailors on the new ships won't even have been born then.

We have less ships because we have less to do. We're not the world's policeman any more. But nevertheless, despite the ships we have being perfectly adequate for the job they actually have to do, we must have new shiny ones every decade or so, and libraries and hospitals be damned.

I can see the point of having a carrier despite that whole thing being an obvious farce - and, as you say, the decision to build two carriers was labour's fault, but the decision to not fit them with catapults meaning they'll go into service without any sodding aircraft on them was Cameron's government's, so there's plenty of blame to go round. I CAN'T see the point in replacing perfectly functional existing warships with new ones to combat some nebulous undefined national threat where if there was an actual threat they'd be overwhelmed in hours anyway.

The new ships are less to do with new capabilities or functions and more to do with a) keeping jobs in the shipyard areas (even though the cost of the vessels is so ludicrous it would actually be cheaper to just pay the shipyard workers not to come in) and b) about the cosy relationship between UK Gov and BAE.

we don't need them, but despite 'austerity' we're getting them anyway. Hoorah.


Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:22 am
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jonbwfc wrote:
we must have new shiny ones every decade or so, and libraries and hospitals be damned.

Every decade or so is a touch misleading, no? The vast majority of destroyers and frigates are from the late 70s to early 80s.

I have no issues with renewing the fleet - it has to happen eventually. However, I seriously doubt they'll get the frigates they want/need with a budget of £250m each. They'll inevitably go way beyond budget and we'll end up curtailing capabilities to mitigate the damage, like having no cats and traps on the new carriers.

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Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:47 am
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jonbwfc wrote:
When was the last time an RN ship fired a real shot in anger? The Falklands? That was 35 years ago. Most of the sailors on the new ships won't even have been born then.
Way more recently that that. The navy has been involved in every major conflict we've contributed to since then. Frigates are constantly dealing with pirates and drug smugglers, just as one eample.

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Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:11 am
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Spreadie wrote:
like having no cats and traps on the new carriers.
You could argue that was a political decision to get more money for Rolls-Royce. Lowering the cost of the carriers, but guarenteeing the F35-B varient of the F35 wasn't cancelled, which would have reduced RR's income from America. They knew at the time what they were saving on the ships would be spent on the more expensive F35-B (compared to the F35-C)

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Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:16 am
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l3v1ck wrote:
jonbwfc wrote:
When was the last time an RN ship fired a real shot in anger? The Falklands? That was 35 years ago. Most of the sailors on the new ships won't even have been born then.
Way more recently that that. The navy has been involved in every major conflict we've contributed to since then. Frigates are constantly dealing with pirates and drug smugglers, just as one eample.

Yes, police work, not warfare. Can be done by ships a fraction of the cost of a Type 45. Which is how a lot of other countries do it. And as for some of the more recent 'fully armed conflicts' the RN didn't see actual combat in either gulf war. We may have had ships in the gulf, but they didn't actually do much beyond being sea going radar stations. IIRC the only thing approaching 'combat' the RN have seen since the Falklands was when a navy patrol got the wrong side of the Iranian border in the Straights of Hormuz and promptly was arrested by/surrendered to the Iranian navy. Which was the correct thing to do given the circumstances to be fair.

No. Just no. We need at least one carrier as a sea going CAS/Interdiction platform. We need a battlegroup's worth of ships to protect that carrier and we can have a few more for relief work and stuff like maritime patrol. But we do not need several battlegroup's (and hundred of billions of pounds worth) of state of the art ships and submarines. We just don't have anything for them to do.

Case in point : The Caribbean is full of British dependencies and is being battered by hurricanes. Relief and support is desperately needed and is now being provided by the British government. How is that help getting there? By air. The RAF are doing it. Because it would take a RN ships days to get there, and even if it is did, any RN ship would have to leave before Hurricane Jose hits the area other wise it risks being one more victim of the storm. Whereas an RAF heavy lifter can get there in 8 hours, unload in two and gets straight back out again. It can do four or five round trips in the time it would take a ship to get there. And we have more heavy lifters than ships.

The navy is not obsolete but it patently doesn't understand what it's role now is and it's chucking multibillions of pounds at warships that are designed to fight a war that isn't going to happen.


Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:51 pm
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jonbwfc wrote:
No. Just no. We need at least one carrier as a sea going CAS/Interdiction platform. We need a battlegroup's worth of ships to protect that carrier and we can have a few more for relief work and stuff like maritime patrol. But we do not need several battlegroup's (and hundred of billions of pounds worth) of state of the art ships and submarines. We just don't have anything for them to do.

Case in point : The Caribbean is full of British dependencies and is being battered by hurricanes. Relief and support is desperately needed and is now being provided by the British government. How is that help getting there? By air. The RAF are doing it. Because it would take a RN ships days to get there, and even if it is did, any RN ship would have to leave before Hurricane Jose hits the area other wise it risks being one more victim of the storm. Whereas an RAF heavy lifter can get there in 8 hours, unload in two and gets straight back out again. It can do four or five round trips in the time it would take a ship to get there. And we have more heavy lifters than ships.

The navy is not obsolete but it patently doesn't understand what it's role now is and it's chucking multibillions of pounds at warships that are designed to fight a war that isn't going to happen.

Exactly we need some front line ships and then a whole set of 2nd tier ships that can do the relief, support, even pirate / smuggler duties. They do not need the latest state of the art kit (they could have "last years" and so be built for a lot less( and so allow us to have more of them)

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Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:21 am
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hifidelity2 wrote:
Exactly we need some front line ships and then a whole set of 2nd tier ships that can do the relief, support, even pirate / smuggler duties.

Just bring back privateers...

Oh, wait, that wasn't what you meant. :oops: :lol:

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Tue Sep 12, 2017 12:16 pm
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big_D wrote:
hifidelity2 wrote:
Exactly we need some front line ships and then a whole set of 2nd tier ships that can do the relief, support, even pirate / smuggler duties.

Just bring back privateers...

Oh, wait, that wasn't what you meant. :oops: :lol:

:D although when we are out of Europe we might be back to smuggling in French brandy

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Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:07 pm
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hifidelity2 wrote:
:D although when we are out of Europe we might be back to smuggling in French brandy

Yay! Maybe they can start selling duty free at airports again.

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Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:43 am
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