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Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
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Author:  pcernie [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18294656

She's right. And totally minxy.
Author:  jonlumb [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
Yes she is, on both counts. David Mitchell can safely be described as a man pulling above his weight ;)
Author:  Linux_User [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
I'm very interested to see what the government does on this - what they're proposing for doctors pensions is exactly what they're proposing for civil service pensions - so if they cave to the doctors, they're going to have to cave for civil servants too.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
Quote:
However, a member of the Question Time audience in Rugby, disagreed claiming that the profession's ethical code means doctors should not strike for fear of alarming patients.

I don't remember the Hippocratic oath ever stating that Doctor's weren't allowed to 'alarm' their patients. That would be ludicrous. If it were true, how would a doctor be able to explain to a patient that their diagnosis suggested something which required a serious operation, or was potentially terminal?

That's a staggeringly broad definition of 'harm' I don't think any sane person would think was reasonable.

Everyone has the right to strike. The right to withdraw one's labour is a fundamental balance in a capitalist economy. Some people formally forgo that right on the basis that their employers (usually the state) do not take advantage of the fact, and are obliged to treat them reasonably well. A similar ethos has always existed in the armed forces (at least, since we abolished conscription anyway). Many senior officers refer to it as 'The Military Compact'.

The current administration, and in fact also the previous one for much of it's time in office, have been increasingly derelict in their side of the bargain for various portions of the professions it applies to and the birds were going to come home to roost sooner or later. It wouldn't surprise me much if, assuming the doctors do strike, that we might see the police follow them for example. And then there will be hell to pay for someone...
Author:  bobbdobbs [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
Quote:
He said the NHS pension would remain "one of the best available anywhere", pointing out a new doctor joining the revised scheme could still expect a pension of £68,000 a year on retirement.

With an expected pension of that amount I can see Mr joe average feeling a little unsympathetic with their gripes and moans.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
bobbdobbs wrote:
With an expected pension of that amount I can see Mr joe average feeling a little unsympathetic with their gripes and moans.

Mr Joe Average should possibly spend more of his time wondering why he doesn't have a decent pension for his old age, rather than envying those who do.

Jon
Author:  tombolt [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
I think it's pretty disgusting they're even considering strike action myself.
Author:  Linux_User [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
tombolt wrote:
I think it's pretty disgusting they're even considering strike action myself.

And why do you think this?
Author:  cloaked_wolf [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
bobbdobbs wrote:
Quote:
He said the NHS pension would remain "one of the best available anywhere", pointing out a new doctor joining the revised scheme could still expect a pension of £68,000 a year on retirement.

With an expected pension of that amount I can see Mr joe average feeling a little unsympathetic with their gripes and moans.

The problem isn't the pension so much as the pension contributions. They're now 24% and set to rise. How would you like to have a pension that gives out less than you put in?!?!?

The other issue is historical. When doctors signed up to the NHS, it was on the proviso that whilst the pay wouldn't be brilliant, the pension would be excellent. If this all goes ahead, I and a few thousand other doctors may well pull out. My boss is a GP partner. Everytime there's a pension increase, he (as part of employer's contribution) has to pay more out of his own pocket to fund the increase for staff (that includes me!). He's now considering pulling out of the pension as he could save 24%, and when it came to retiring, the pay out on interest alone would mount up more than £68k.

On top of this, civil servants pay half the pension contributions that we do but still have a better pension scheme. Why?
Author:  cloaked_wolf [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
tombolt wrote:
I think it's pretty disgusting they're even considering strike action myself.

+1. We're not slaves.
Author:  jonbwfc [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
cloaked_wolf wrote:
tombolt wrote:
I think it's pretty disgusting they're even considering strike action myself.

+1. We're not slaves.

I think Tom's statement is turning out to be a bit ambiguous.

Tom, did you mean you're disgusted that they're planning to go on strike, or its disgusting that they feel they have to plan to go on strike?


Jon
Author:  ProfessorF [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
cloaked_wolf wrote:
When doctors signed up to the NHS, it was on the proviso that whilst the pay wouldn't be brilliant, the pension would be excellent.


Does that mean that a doctor's pay isn't 'brilliant' now? :shock:
Author:  jonbwfc [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
ProfessorF wrote:
cloaked_wolf wrote:
When doctors signed up to the NHS, it was on the proviso that whilst the pay wouldn't be brilliant, the pension would be excellent.

Does that mean that a doctor's pay isn't 'brilliant' now? :shock:

That changed a few years back. At the time, it was widely acknowledged that the government of the day (the last lot) made an utter balls up of the negotiations, and ended up giving the doctors far more than they would have been willing to settle for.

I don't have the figures to know if the doctor's pension setup is good value to the taxpayer (and, frankly, I wouldn't trust this government to tell me) but I don't think there's actually a lot of mileage in arguing whether doctors are well paid compared to <some other random group in society>. I suspect if you're fit and well, you might not think they needed to be paid all that much. if you're lying in a hospital bed, you might think they deserve rather more.

To use an oft used phrase by certain groups 'if you want the best people, you have to pay the going rate'. Do we want our doctors to be the best people, or are we happy if they're kind of.. middling and all the best people go off and get jobs as derivatives traders because that pays in a month what a doctor earns in a year? You get what you pay for, both individually and as a nation.

In simple terms, the important question is : How much is a doctor worth to you? To your children? To your parents?

Jon
Author:  tombolt [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
jonbwfc wrote:
cloaked_wolf wrote:
tombolt wrote:
I think it's pretty disgusting they're even considering strike action myself.

+1. We're not slaves.

I think Tom's statement is turning out to be a bit ambiguous.

Tom, did you mean you're disgusted that they're planning to go on strike, or its disgusting that they feel they have to plan to go on strike?


Jon


Wasn't intended to be ambiguous, but I can see why it would be. They're amply remunerated and left with a very good pension. They can [LIFTED] off as far as I'm concerned.
Author:  hifidelity2 [ Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Victoria Coren: 'Hard-working' doctors earn pensions
cloaked_wolf wrote:
The problem isn't the pension so much as the pension contributions. They're now 24% and set to rise. How would you like to have a pension that gives out less than you put in?!?!?

The other issue is historical. When doctors signed up to the NHS, it was on the proviso that whilst the pay wouldn't be brilliant, the pension would be excellent. If this all goes ahead, I and a few thousand other doctors may well pull out. My boss is a GP partner. Everytime there's a pension increase, he (as part of employer's contribution) has to pay more out of his own pocket to fund the increase for staff (that includes me!). He's now considering pulling out of the pension as he could save 24%, and when it came to retiring, the pay out on interest alone would mount up more than £68k.

On top of this, civil servants pay half the pension contributions that we do but still have a better pension scheme. Why?


BBC says they will be


Quote:
Under plans to replace the final salary pension with a career average scheme, the retirement age for doctors in England and Wales would rise to 68 and contributions could reach 14.5% for the highest earners by 2014.


and I doubt that for that money you would get an indexed linked pension with all the other bells and whistles that a goverment pension has
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