Interesting. Most Cyrus owners I know spend more time with their kit in the repair shop than on their racks

That's a bit of a concerning stat for sure...

I'm just in the process of putting together a shortlist for what I reckon deserves a listen.

Ok, stuff to listen to (this is more for my own record / edification):

Naim CD5i
Naim NAC 202
Naim NAP 200
SuperNAIT

Primare CD21
Primare A31.2 Integrated
Primare PRE30
Primare A33.2 Power

Quad CDP2
Quad 99 Pre
Quad 909

Leema Acoustics Stream CD Player
Leema Acoustics Pulse Amplifier

Musical Fidelity M6 CD
Musical Fidelity M6i

Just discovered this:

http://www.musicmatters.co.uk/chord_cpm ... 3500_4.asp

OH boy do I wish I had the money right now!

It's half price, how can you say no.

Spent most of yesterday split between two hi fi shops, doing some initial research. I've come to the conclusion that after a while, the speakers seem to make far more of a difference in terms of how the system sounds. I've listened to both the Naim 200 series electronics and the Quad 99 series, both of which are supposed to be fairly different in character and when using the same speakers there was little difference in personality. The Naim kit was better, but at £4500 instead of £2500, that's to be expected (and I would definitely go for the Naim).

Speakers were far more interesting. Listened to the Neat 2s, Neat 1s, accoustic Energy Radiance 2s and 3s and the AEs were leagues ahead (despite being cheaper than the Neats). Top to mid were fairly even, but at the low end the Neats were just woolly and imprecise, whereas the AEs were much tighter. In particular, the fact the the Neats had a downwards firing bass driver means they will be very dependent on what they are sat on.

In the second shop (where I bought my original setup) there were really only the 99 series Quads, as both the levels of valve monoblocks were out on demo and they had sold the last of their Leema Acoustics stuff. However, there were more speakers available. We started with my Quad 11Ls and quickly realised how poor they were even with some much better electronics. After that we tried some Leema Acoustics speakers which wer ok, but I reckoned shouldn't be more than about £700 but were in fact £1500. We then stuck some AE Radiance 2s on to compare the 99 series to the Naim. It did highlight the difference but also showed that the 99 series could produce with the right speakers.

Finally we stuck the baby Quad electrostatics on. Boy were the a revelation by comparison, by far and away the tightest, most detailed (and expensive) things j have ever heard, but well worth the extra expenditure. What was particularly interesting is that they still really performed well at lower volumes where horn based speakers tend to suffer somewhat. The only issue would be whether the room I can put them in will be too small, as they do need a bit of space.

I'm pretty sold on Naim electronics, but I think both ProAc and also Martin Logan need an audition too.

Over and out.

This is always true. In my mind, you should choose the speakers first and then buy suitable components to drive them.

Even a £30 amplifier will probably be 99% perfect in every respect when used at 30% power. You pay a high premium to get over the 99.9% mark, and an astronomical amount to reach 99.999%

Any amplifier should have a frequency response effectively flat across the human hearing range, and to most people anything less than 1% THD sounds much the same. To most hi-fi buffs, less than 0.05% THD is undetectable even in a studio environment.

Most speakers are far less than 99% accurate, have very uneven frequency responses and suffer Doppler distortion - especially noticeable when fed with challenging material. There's a good reason you do not commonly see the THD figures quoted for speakers. The nastiest (and not necessarily cheapest) can be over 10% which would be unthinkable for even the cheapest amplifier.

Electrostatic speakers probably have the lowest THD of anything available, although the figures are rarely published because they're so poor and also not easy to quantify since it depends on the material.

Listening to voice is a good test. If it sounds like someone is standing in the room with you, they've got accurate midrange.

If only it were so simple!

Speakers are sensitive to where you place them - too close to side walls or too close to the wall behind them can have a dramatic effect on how they sound. What's in the room will also affect the sound, that's why I'd never buy anything expensive without either a home demo or the option to take it back if I didn't like it.

On the subject of amplifiers, you also need to have enough power so that you don't end up clipping, and this will also depend on the sensitivity of the speakers and their impedance. Roughly speaking your amp should be able to provide between 1.6 and 2.5 times the rating of the speaker. There's a useful calculator here.

I am certainly aware of the placing of speakers being an issue, and my recent listening sessions have already prompted me to meddle with my home setup, which has lead to a nice little improvement, particularly in the imaging.

This whole thing of power from amps is something I'm still not convinced by. If it were really true, surely valve amps would have died out a long time ago? They often quote piddly power rating in comparison to all other varieties, yet seem to have a pretty decent stake in the top end of the market. I am aware they won't normally go particularly loud, but they certainly seem to run contrary to the 1.6-2.5 times rating of most speakers I've seen.

You'll find that speakers for valve amps are very sensitive (over 88dBa) so they don't need a lot of power to drive them, otherwise you run into the clipping issue.

Upon some further auditioning of kit, I think I have a pretty solid list:

Bel Canto CD-2
Bel Canto e.One Pre 3
2 x Bel Canto e.One M300 monoblocks
Bel Canto VBS1 Power Supply
Totem Model 1 Signature
Totem Acoustics Stands (cannot recall model)

plus some balanced connections etc.

Absolutely annihilated Naim at the same price point.

My brother (who had come along when looking at stuff last weekend) asked for my thoughts via Facebook of yesterday's experience. Though I'd post here in case anyone is interested. My brother is a pretty accomplished musician and has a fine pair of ears, but isn't up much on kit / tech so I've tried to be as gentle as possible on that note:

I shall start with a touch of nostalgia first, for edification. Many years ago, not long after I bought my current hi fi, and had started work at MBNA, Garan and I went to pick up some stuff from the Maplins in Chester (3 pin plug ends etc. for Garan to make up cables). Opposite the Maplin was one of Chester's two main hi fi places (Richer Sounds and Band & Olofsun really don't count). After a short while in their demo room, we had ended up with the system of CD5, Nac 200 (pre), Nap 202 (power) and ProAc Response D15. This was something of a revelation to me, as it's sound was leagues ahead of what I had, but the whole Naim /ProAc mix was pretty set in my head at this point.

Yesterday was part II of my browse (my last opportunity before Tora returns). Started off at my local hi fi place, identical Naim kit as to Creative Audio, but with separate Naim DAC so that I can get a decent sound out of the Mac / PC as they both have digital outs. Put the cost up quite a bit, but not much more than the CDX2 which is what "should" be with that pre/power amp combo.

Now the replacement to the Response D15s mentioned earlier are the Response D18s. They dwarf the Neat / Acoustic Energy stuff we looked at at Creative Audio, and weren't going to fit anywhere in our house (much like the Quad electrostatics). Started off with the ProAc Response D Two (bookshelf size), but the bass was rather lean (although the mid and treble did sing rather well). Tried the Response D 1's, which whilst cheaper had a rather different presentation as well. Much fuller, richer bass, but at the cost of clarity across the whole scale. Anything of a crescendo became a bit of a mush of instruments rather than a selection of instruments all hitting a peak. Given that the listening room was notably bigger than either of the one's we were in last weekend, we tried the D18s, just to see if it was a size issue (speakers too small for a room etc.). They had the beautiful midrange of the D Twos, with a much richer bass, but still lacking that individual clarity.

They only had one other make of speaker in that was particularly of note at this price range, a company called Wilson Benesch. They are use chassis made from carbon fiber and other exotic stuff, and were being very highly praised when I bought my stuff. So we upped the speakers to the Arc, a tiny pint pot set (about the size of my Naims) that are the bottom of the WB range. Immediate change, despite not a staggering price difference. No issues with bass, despite the size of room, and staggering clarity in crescendos, plus ticking all my usual boxes for pace and punch.

We were still under my nominal mental limit of £10k, even if it was only just. I was really impressed with the Arcs in particular especially as their price included stands (two which they come affixed. They have a downward firing bass port that wouldn't work with 99% of stands out there). They were also small enough that they'd almost certainly be fine in my room too, which was a serious plus point on the relationship harmony front.

I was that content with them that I nearly considered cancelling my appointment at Audio Destination in Tiverton and saving myself the exorbitant £3.30 train fare there and back. However, when I'd been in there (more by accident than design) some 4 years ago in the first year, they'd been really friendly people (something that the local place isn't quite so good at). Kind of felt I owed them a try at least, even if they didn't stock Naim. Gave them a quick ring to check my appointment time, they confirmed 2:00 but said I was welcome to come on over earlier. I said that I would hop on a train and come straight away then, to give me more time in the evening when Daddy's website needed some work doing.

After various sections of public transport (all on time shockingly) I got to Tiverton Parkway to discover it was about 6.5 miles outside Tiverton (doubly annoying as I'd checked it on Google Maps beforehand, which still had some legacy station from the middle of Tiverton in it's database). However, there was also a message on my answerphone from the woman at Audio Destination who had realised I was probably going to get into Parkway and have a nasty shock, and thus offering to pick me up from the station when I arrived and to simply give them a ring. When you bear in mind that I'd already told them this was simply a budget setting exercise, I was seriously impressed. So Mike the owner came to pick me up, and we had a very nice chat on the way to the shop.

Started off with some Leema Acoustics electronics (the CD player that they’d had in Acton Gate, plus it’s appropriate integrated amp). In addition to these were a pair of speakers from a company called Totem, whom I’d never heard of and never even seen a review of any of their products, so an interesting lack of preconception (with the exception of Mike getting rather excited about them on the car journey). The speakers in question (Totem Model 1 Signatures) are really rather small. In theory they were only slightly smaller than my Quads (less than a single cm each way) but appeared somehow much smaller. Including stands, slightly cheaper than the Arcs by about £300, so overall a slightly cheaper system (about £8,500 total). Even from cold (most electronics sound better having been warmed up properly) the Leema Acoustics stuff sounded stunningly good, and I can see why Acton Gate were raving about them so when we were there. The real surprise however was the Totems. They were just incredible given their size. The Quads I have got received good reviews when they came out, not least for the presence that such a small speaker could produce. They are nothing in comparison to the Totems, and whilst closer in price the ProAc bookshelf models and even the massive D18s didn’t come close to it. The only things that I think would come close and that I would be keen to contrast were the Wilson Benesch Arcs and the Quad Electrostatics. Yes, these babies were giving a speaker twice the price a reasonable run for it’s money (although granted on better electronics than the CDP/909 we heard the Quads with).

The only downsides to it as a setup was the lack of DAC, so it would have meant relying on the onboard DAC on the computers, not a particularly good way to connect the Mac and PC. Secondly was that we were only talking three units, so much more saving required between purchases. The second point is really kind of minor, but I know what my personality is like
Part way through, Mike popped his head in and mentioned that they’d got the wrong stands on, that they normally used a different model. A quick switch was made and boy did it make a difference, particularly to the lower end, which whilst already impressive tightened up considerably more. This addition took the Totem / Stand combo to exactly the same price point as the Arcs, which made life very interesting. Previously I’ve never been that much of a fan of people raving about accessories likes stands, but I can really see the point now. Yes they were twice the price of the first stands (£600 as opposed to £300) but they really did make it sound like we’d had a full on speaker upgrade, and definitely one that would have been more than a £300 difference. After a while of basically luxuriating in the sound that this setup produced (and I threw a lot of difficult disks at it without any difficulty), finally decided that maybe a change of electronics should be tried, as there was another setup at this price point.

Bel Canto were the makers, and the setup consisted of a CD player, pre-amp, two mono-block power amps (300W each!) and an external power supply), coming in at about the same price as the Leema kit. Of note here on a purely cosmetic form was the CD player, which didn’t actually enclose the CD, and you could literally touch the CD whilst it was playing (not that I did). To be quite honest, there wasn’t a staggering difference between the two setups as far as sound was concerned. The treble was slightly more forward on the Bel Canto kit, but even when shown music that can be very bright it didn’t turn sharp at all.

We did then try the floor standing equivalent of the Totems we’d been using, but they went off pretty quickly as the bass just became too much by far. It was picking up bass notes in really odd tracks and it just made them feel odd. If I was only going to listen to The Prodigy all day they’d have been fine, but things like the Cannonball Adderley track became really peculiar.

The Bel Canto kit did have a number of advantages over the Leema stuff though, in terms of being easier to reach (more, smaller purchases) and lent itself in turn to a more sensible upgrade route, which I think will be important. In addition, there’s a good DAC available for about half the price of the Naim one. Lastly it had physically smaller boxes, so it should make housing it a bit easier (you know just how much free space I have in my room).

So there you have it, I’ve just wasted about an hour of my life typing out a very excitable ramble. If you’d like a way of quantifying just how good the stuff at Audio Destination was, I didn’t actually get lunch yesterday, and not once did I even think about it throughout the afternoon!

Sounds good!

Well, now that the Wench is back I've had the opportunity to mention possibly turning the dining room into a dining room / music room and she wasn't completely opposed to the idea, which was progress indeed, as it's just big enough to house the Quad ESL 2805s without them being excessive. Given likely budgets, it's not going to lead to a 'balanced' system, but given that it trounced systems of a similar price point with a roughly equal distribution of cost amongst the products, I don't have such a problem

In addition, I worked out that the bel Canto setup was nearly £1800 more than the Leema setup and certainly wasn't £1800 better (that's including interconnectors etc.) especially when you consider that the Leema was listened to from cold, whereas the bel Canto had been up and running for a number of days. Whilst saving for a smaller number of more expensive boxes is a little more frustrating, I would end up spending less in the long run and have a better system as well, it's just a matter of patience.

Sounds like a very thorough bit of research (as I'd expect if I was spending that kind of money on something so personal as sound) and I hope you're happy with the results when you get it all home and set up. I'm about as far removed from an audiophile as you can get (still reeling at the idea that people spend £300 on a pair of speaker stands ) so forgive to total novice question, but are regular CDs good enough (technically, not aesthetically) to play through a system like the one you've specced above, or do you have to search out ultra-high quality recordings?

Cheers, Pete